In this episode with General James McConville, former Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, we reflect on the importance of effective leadership for today's challenges. From building cohesive teams to the importance of integrity and moral courage, General McConville discusses key principles that define effective leadership in any setting. Discover how caring for your team can foster loyalty and success, and gain valuable lessons applicable to both military and civilian leadership roles. Don’t miss this episode filled with wisdom and actionable advice from one of America’s top military leaders.
Bruce Huberman
I'd like to welcome everyone to the Wide Open Podcast. This is episode #9 season one, my name is Bruce Huberman. My co-host is Paul Assaiante. Our executive producer is James Spavelko and our media producer is Merley Fuentes. It gives me such pleasure to introduce retired four-star General James McConville. He served as Army chief of staff from 2019 to 2023. His military career is second to none. This podcast has explored experts in all fields but has not even come close to a career military expert with four stars on his lapel.
Bruce Huberman
My co-host met General McConville while he was a pleb at West Point. A previous hockey and tennis player in high school, Coach A got him to play squash and their friendship was consummated and they have continued. And they have stayed close as friends throughout, so without any further introductions, I'm going to turn this over to my co-host, Paul.
Paul Assaiante
So Jim, this is one of those you know out of body experiences because as a coach, a leader of any kind, the ultimate payback, the paycheck; is the reconnecting with people that had such a big impact on their lives all those years ago. And so, what I wanted to do is kick this off by saying we shared four years at West Point. And you went on to do amazing things as a, as a patriot and a hero in the United States Army. And I thought that I would kick it off by just saying how it is that you became a member of the squash team. When you arrived at West Point, you had played tennis and hockey, and so you played fall tennis. And afterwards what we would typically do is we would say all right to the plebs, “you have an opportunity to learn this brand-new sport called squash rackets, or you can box intramurals. So, the choice is yours.” So why was it that you went on to pick up the game of squash?
Jim McConville
Well, I thought, you know, again what you said. I thought squash was a vegetable. When I went to West and I think, you know, as we try it out, you know, I was number one of my test team, but I was not of the the skill, the play of varsity tennis. You know, I just fell in during the fall playing with a bunch of great individuals. And you know, you know, this is for you, coach. You did an incredible job. Of taking people. Who have never, you know, played a sport and you know, really making us or getting us to the national level, which is really pretty. Incredible. You know, and I, I joke with the coach is, you know, we went on to Trinity and and you know the most winningest coach in college history. And he finally got some talents who could actually win. But, you know, we were actually pretty good. I think we were 5th or 6th nationally ranked. You know, I had a chance, you know you to go.
Paul Assaiante
We were.
Jim McConville
To the nationals, you know people. We had some, all Americans who have never picked up a squash racket which is really pretty amazing. And, you know, one of the things that that I've thought about and it goes to, you know, people always try to figure out how do you become. A master of your craft and. You you did a great job of kind of showing us how to do that. Then there's been a lot of books written on those type things I was looking at a book. I I read a lot just to get insights, but there's a book called. Well, the the, The Talent Code. And you know, how do you become really good at something. And I think you were the perfect example of that and that, you know, first you got to be committed and passionate about the sport or you're not going to get any good. That's the first thing. So we I think we brought that but the. Second thing was delivered. Practice, you know, at West Point, very busy schedule, we practice every day. It was tough practices. We ran the ski slopes. We, you know, we we worked hard, we played hard. And then so that's the second piece delivered practice. But the third piece was expert coaching. We had great coaching from you and those three things allowed us to become, you know, a very competitive sports team. But what it took with us too was we went on into our military careers. We were certainly physically fit, but the team was just a team with. So it's the integrity and character and and and you know understanding what it took to win and and you know like we say in the army “winning matters” so you gave us all that.
Paul Assaiante
That well, my the second comment I wanted to make and you're very kind to say those things is there was a plaque at Arvin Gymnasium and it was a MacArthur quote and it was “on the friendly fields of strife or sewing the seeds that on later fields will bear the fruits of
victory.” That was my A-HA moment. I realized that you learn more. In the in the squash courts on the football field on the lacrosse field, in the pool, oftentimes, more than what you learn in the chemistry lab because you learn how to strategize, you learn how to adjust on the fly because it never goes the way we think it's going to go. So. Having you guys in that setting was. We couldn't fail because it meant that much to us, and it meant that much to us as a group.
Jim McConville
Yeah, I I think you did a great job of just instilling us and and now it's it's it's interesting because the you know the the the strategy you talked about is extremely important. The fitness you know the reason we can compete against teams that were much better because we were very physically fit. I mean it was you know you wouldn't think squash players the you know of that caliber. But you know, as you know, we we used to have to take certain physical tests at West Point. The obstacle course, which is one of. The tough ones and. And the the slowest point is, you know, you know, it's certainly the rest of everything else. We're very, very physically said. And you instilled in us and and you take that physical fitness, especially when you go on to your first units and you know as I, you know, lieutenants all at often asked me, you know, what should you know when I go to my first unit, what should I bring with me? I go first thing you know, they're going to expect you to be physically fit. And that's just to give the second thing is they're going to expect is to have you know integrity and really you know, you know in character that's really important. The third thing is you have to be willing to learn, you know, and you're going to learn in your entire career. And I'm still learning to this day and and that's what makes you a good leader and a good officer.
Bruce Huberman
So. General, I'm very interested in your pathway to West Point. And then eventually I'd like you to just comment on a typical day as a pleb, aside from hitting the squash courts and and working really hard and you know the the squash players are actually probably the, you know probably the fittest athletes in the world. I mean the intensity of a squash match. I mean your anaerobic energy. And it's just your heart rate and goes really high and you have to be able to, you know, compete with that intensity. So I'm interested. You grew up in Quincy, Mass. And were your parents military types or where were they at? How did you find your way to West Point?
Jim McConville
Well, it's it's it's an interesting story. You know, Quincy, if you know Quincy, Quincy is a working class town South of Boston. I know Coach has been there went over, we played at
Harvard, but I got a chance to, you know, bring him to Quincy. And and you know, Quincy is famous for two presidents. So that's you know, John Adams, John Quincy Adams; 18 general officers, which is really interesting. Going back to general. Hancock and, you know, recently, General Dunford, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He and I grew up in the same neighborhood, General Sullivan, who was the chief of staff. That's been 40 chiefs of staff of the army. And two came from Quincy, a town 100,000. So you'd think about, you know, some of those type of things and. You know, people say, well, what's in the water up there? I go. It's really not what's in the water. It's, it's what it is in the people and people are hard working people. Most of the dads served in the Korean War, World War Two. So you grew up, you know, among people that had tremendous respect for the military. They weren't career military. But they had all done their time and there was a certain expectation that service was a good thing and and, you know, Quincy is the city of Patriots and and and that's kind of instilled in you. The thing I didn't mention, it's three Congressional Medal of Honor recipients from Quincy too. But yeah, we grew up like most kids. We played a lot of sports, you know you, you know, contact sports you you used to get knocked down, you know like I I like sports because you learn is to get knocked down and get backed up you learn to fail you don't win every game. And and those attribute. It's a really important for young men and women to have, as they they go on with life. Winning does matter. In fact, we did trademark that for the United States Army. I've got that trademark. But you know what does winning look like? You know, sometimes you're not going to win every game, but winning may be you didn't perform as well as you should have. But how do you get learn from that and get better? Next time and what is success and and those type of things and so you know the way I got exposed to West Point was you know we we often asked about you know who your mentors you know who kind of decided to go and you know interesting story. I was 16 years old. And I was working for the Quincy Sewage Department, you know, summer job, I thought was a great job. But, you know, we, you know, dug holes and, you know, in one day there was a we had this pumping station and they took us out there and the, you know, with the young kids, they put us in waiters and and they had this big grate in those days, we used to pump sewage into Quincy Bay, and it wasn't really a good thing. So what happened is we're shoveling all day trying to clear the grades, you know, really bad work, smelling awful. And one of the, you know, gentlemen goes mean, you know, metrics, you know. You go say Jim, he goes. You don't want to be doing this when you're 45 years old. Go to school, you know. And I said I don't want to be doing this when I'm 16 years old and you know, and. And that was good mentoring and then it came, you know, a situation. Where do you go to school and you know, I I'd heard about West Point and it it was just a great opportunity to go to a very, you know, prestigious school with a, with a incredible history. I mean, and, you know, I really didn't quite know what I was getting into but. You know, at the time it seemed the right place. I was very
fortunate to get a nomination from US Senator Kennedy and, you know, off I went, you know, and had a chance to learn a lot at West Point.
Bruce Huberman
So your typical day at West Point as a as a first year you. I mean, just give us like just a sample of.
Jim McConville
I mean, you know. It's hard. It's got, you know, it's a, you know, I mean and and Coach knows this because he was involved in, you know what what happened with the instruction. But I mean most days start about 5:30 in the morning and you know you get up there's certain things you have to do you go you know get you your rooms get inspected all the time so you know there's certain strict discipline. You go out, you know, and have to stand in a formation and and then you, you know, you would march over to the dining facility and then some of your meals want the best meals because they would be helping you learn your type things and then you'd go to school. You know, you know, just college. You know, you take a tremendous amount of college. So it's like 7:33 o'clock. And then at 3:00, if you were like, like I happen to be fortunate to be on a in a collision sport, you would go to practice for, you know, three or four hours and then go to dinner, then study. And that was like every day and and you would balance, you know, taking 20/21 credits of college courses, doing all the crime, military planning and intercollegiate sport. Traveling, going to school on Saturdays, having parades on Saturdays and and a few, you know, and studying in between. So it it it definitely gives you an opportunity to manage your time and you know have access to a lot of knowledge and physical fitness and you know and and it it's it's a wonderful place but you know if you if you think you're going there to do easy, that's probably not the place to go.
Paul Assaiante
That is for sure. You know, I unfortunately, and unfortunately for me, coaching at West Point was my first job and so. Coaches on that base were heroes. They were Demi gods, you know, Bobby Knight had just left. My neighbor was Mike Jezewski. Jack Riley was the 1960 gold medal hockey coach, you know? So I was in that setting and and. But I thought to be a great coach, you needed to be a national championship coacg. And so when I left after 13 years, I bounced around, I coached. But when we started winning national championships here, what I realized was that I was wrong. And what I learned was that the measure of a leader is not where you finish, it's how far you take them. And the cadets, in terms of their your growth, your improvement, you grew more than anyone that I could have a coach because you were so disciplined and you were so dedicated. And more
importantly, every minute of your day you were competing. Whether it was thumb wrestling in the classroom, getting a little more food at the mess than the guy next to you, and that's what made you such ferocious competitors.
Jim McConville
Now I think you know, it's really interesting to think about how they they put that into our culture though, like as you remember, our grades used to get posted every single day. And you know, it was interesting after you would take a test. You would sit by you know how you finish, so you know you're the number one person in math, you sat in the number one chair and the number one, you know, section and and. And then after test and we would move seats and then move you around and some you know and they and I I remember I I took advanced Spanish. And and most of the kids that took advanced Spanish were native speakers. I come from Boston, you know, I I put ours where they shouldn't be. We had them where they're not supposed to be. And but I I had a a a a not in high school that really taught me glamour. But I didn't speak very well. So I was always. At the door, the last seat you know as as they move people around. If you didn't quite make it, you left the you know you left the course and I just stayed the last seat me to get through. But as you said, coach, every day you're getting graded. You're getting graded by everybody and you had a chance to feel some things. You had a chance to do. You know, together, but the other thing that I I found amazing was the relationships you make when you're facing in adversity all of the time, it it it really builds character and it builds cohesion among, you know, your classmates and and and and to this day, it's almost like there's a certain relationship with with classmates in West Point and it just continues years later.
Bruce Huberman
So let me answer your questions. So if you were, say, one of your friends came up to you saying you're their son or daughter is interested in, you know, you know, branch of the military, how do you, you know, like for me like, you know, I I never served but. How do you determine which branch is good for you and there's different, you know, options, obviously army, and Navy, Marines. How do you like guide someone or how does someone decide, “I think that's the better place for me.”
Jim McConville
Yeah, well, you know, you know, the the good thing about the army, you know, when when you take a look at, you can do anything you want to do in the army, you know, and and you know. I mean you, if you wanna be a pilot, You know, pilot, if you wanna do cyber, you know, do you wanna be in the most elite units in the world. You know they exist in the army. You know, it really depends on what you want to do, but I would just say serve. Anywhere
and I you know. I have a lot of, you know, people. I get a chance to talk to you today and I was very fortunate that I had a chance to serve and and quite frankly, when I started serving I I would have bet you $1,000,000 I would not have served 42 years. I've always spent. I would have bet you a billion dollars, that I would not been the chief staff of the army. You know, maybe even more, I probably bet you even more. But you know, I I think you know for the. Country as a whole and and I have three kids that serve right now. And I was talking to my youngest. And you know, you know, he he he is someone that is probably had a lot of unrealized potential in high school and college, and now he's realizing it. And but, you know, he looks back and whether he stays in or gets out, he goes. Dad, everyone should serve, you know, he he goes. I'm so glad that he did. He didn't go to West Point, went to ROTC. But there's just so many opportunities to get. You know structure and discipline and you know, no matter what you do, no one will ever be able to take that away from you and I get a chance to talk to a lot of successful people. People have done extremely well. You know, CEO's, billionaires and and I don't want to tell me, “geez, you know, one thing I wish I did, I wish I served.” And so I I think there's great opportunities there. I I think like everything else you know, drink a cup of coffee or drink a coke or have a soda with somebody and talk to, you know, young men and women from the services that you may be interested in and, you know, follow your passion, you know, because that's the first thing. If you want to be good at something. You want to be passion, you know, passionate about and you may not get it right. You know, I mean you to go in the army, you know, you might start off as you know, infantry or you might aviation or you might end up in cyber. Who knows what. But there's that you want to go where there's lots of opportunities and lots of options. Options that you can grow into.
Bruce Huberman
So just finishing on that point, you know, my son, uh, that's how I know Coach, my son has played squash since he's six years old, just graduated from Cornell and now is going down to the workforce. The sports, the discipline. I mean it really, you know, you go to, you go to school, you come after school, you know, you train. It really shows you the discipline and so I guess being at West Point takes that on like steroids to the enth degree. I mean the combination of sports and then your class work and your you know your military exercises and stuff. That has to just stay with you forever and and really show allows you to, you know, really put away the time when necessary to do certain things and know how to budget your time. Because, I mean, that was a gift that I'm always grateful that my son was able to compete. And and it really served him well in college, you know, he was captaining the team there and he had a lot of responsibility. He got a lot of academic work, yet he was able to manage it because he knew how to, you know, manage his time. So I I think it's incredible and I think you're right. I mean, if everyone over time would have an ability and a
chance to serve, it probably would do very well for them, especially these young kids, you know, growing up today.
Paul Assaiante
Well, you know, it's interesting. And one of the things that I noticed is one of the reasons a lot of people don't stay in the military as long as General McConville did, is they're so marketable in the business world because. It's common, not they're bright, they're disciplined. They're dedicated. They're honest. I mean, who wouldn't want to hire somebody like that? And so, you know, obviously, Jim, you you stayed in because you’re be a patriot and you saw the the purpose in all of that, but I'm sure you turned down a lot of opportunities along the way where you could have cashed in.
Jim McConville
Well, I think there's, yeah, there's always, you know, interesting enough. It's just I won't bring it up, but there was, you know, I mean opportunities to do a lot of different things and but but I was very blessed, you know, as as we get to the higher ranks, you know what we really need is people to serve at the lower ranks. And you know when they stay in and not and then you know what we should do is compete for their talents and and and the army all along. I I couldn't foresee myself, you know, staying as long as I did. But you know, each time, you know, there's another opportunity and you know, they said, how about this? I kept telling my wife this is the last assignment. I kept filling out paperwork saying this is really it. Even when I became the the vice chief staff, the army, which is the number two job, there had never been an aviator chief staff, the army and and I was telling people. Well, there's what about you being chief staff of the Army. That's not gonna happen. It's it's. This is the army. The army will never have an aviator as Chief of Staff of the army and I. I I told the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you know, he asked me what you think about you being chief like a lot he he was a marine. I go, “That's not gonna happen” and it did and I was very fortunate and I think you know what you what you wanna do is is be passionate about trying to you know. You know, very fortunate to have a a wife that was extremely supportive and and three kids that were supportive and you know and and as a result, we're able to do this as a team. And I think that's all part of it. You know, how do you get the work life balance? How do you keep, you know, the team together as you move through it. I know when I made general, you know, I sat the family down and go, hey, you know, we I just had a you know, very successful combat tour with the First Cavalry Division I you know. And I said hey do we you know. We're going to start a new chapter. You know, we've been a Colonel successful and I'm sitting there probably about 44/45 years old with, you know, you know, a lot of runway ahead of me. You know, if we take on General, this is what it means and you know. And but the kids are very, very supportive. And as long with my wife.
And so I think, you know, I think at every level you need to take a look at where you are in life and see how it fits. Does it fit, you know? And you know we don't need, you know, a whole bunch of people to be Four Star Generals. You know, it's like, you know, you think about when you think about West Point class of almost 1000 kids. And you know, I look at it and I go “how the heck did I ever make general?” When I look at all the incredible people that I had a chance to go to school.
Bruce Huberman
So do you think you are a natural born leader or was that like an acquired taste?
Jim McConville
No, I think it's it's it's it's, you know, to me, I don't think I was a naturally born. I think I had some great people along the way and I'm not so sure there are naturally born leaders you know some people, I. Think have you know genetics helps. You know, when you look at talent. You know the talent code, talent management. You know, if you're 7’2”, you’re probably not gonna be a gymnast. You know, you might be better in basketball, you know, or, you know, or something like that, you know, even like with us. Who knows how much squash did for people like me when I became a pilot in flying helicopters in combat. They hear they, you know, they they, you know, they the coordination that you have from doing, you know hand eye coordination, which is really important. You know when it comes to doing those type things. So you know I I I think. That. You want to be learning, you know everything I do. I'm always learning, you know, along the way. And and that matters, you know.
Paul Assaiante
So I have a confession for you that I've not said before. In terms of my coaching time at West Point, if I knew then what I know now, I'd still be there. And the thing that made it so extraordinary. And maybe it's because I started there. And it isn't about me this call, it's. About you. But. The thing about the military. Is that there, it's black and white. If the answer is yes, they're going to say yes. And if the answer is no, there's not this need to sugar coat it and move into the Gray and soften it. It's simply no. This is how it's going to work, and you can imagine growing professionally in that environment. And then going to. In the middle 80s New York, where everything was Gray and everything was negotiable, and I didn't have the tools to manage in that setting. And I I'm always amazed you didn't do things because there was the bonus. You didn't do things because it was transactional. You did things because it was the right thing to do. And that, we don't see enough of that in this world.
Jim McConville
Yeah, that, you know, although I I'm glad you did get a chance to go someplace else. So, you know, we we would never sorry your skill set. I mean, you know, it's interesting watching, you know, the Bobby Knights, the coach K’s, the coach A's, you know, and and you know, and, you know, Belichick, I mean, like, even Belichick and all these folks that have had. You know, an Academy experience and it's hard there, you're trying to get, you know you're I mean when you think what a tough job for a coach because you know they're not getting, you know, money to play this. And I haven't got. That you know. They they are you. You don't get much of their. You're competing for their time. And you're looking at these these kids that that are taking, you know, multivariable calculus. Football player, every, everyone's taking these tough, tough engineering courses at the same time they're trying to do all this thing and you know, the fact that you all produce the teams that you do is really pretty incredible.
I really think I I just take the whole place as I've had a chance to step back and take a look at it and as chief and, you know, I see I think I hear a lot of people talk about, you know, the kids today of this or that. Uh, you know, the Academy kids are just unbelievable. And I even talked to my, you know, some of the alumni sometimes can get, you know, you know, difficult. I I was giving a speech at one of the great honors as the Chief of Staff of the Army has is you give the banquet, the graduation banquet speech every year, you know. You know, the night before they go out and get their diplomas, you get to speak to them and you know, and I'll give them a big you know “Hoorah” type speach. But you know, I was talking to one class. And I go, you know you. Know for those who talk about the core has. You know you have 4 rogue scholars for more than my class. I just want. Someone said you did this. You did that, you know, and so. There's some extraordinary. Young men and women, and what's really interesting, I would say the biggest difference, the extraordinary young women that are going to West Point.
Speaker
Ohh.
Jim McConville
Would you know? Just be. They're unbelievable. I I gotta kick. They, you know, there's always people talk about fitness and their fitness is so much better than our fitness. You know, people like you know, I'm not going to get into the whole you know Gen this and Gen that but the fitness of the young men and women that play sports is significantly better. I look at my, my, my two sons and daughter. My two sons. You know I did the Boston Marathon a year ago with those two, you know, when I was 64 I went, you know, I I didn't set the record, but I did win for the Chief of staff of the army category, you know? But but
yeah, they they ran the marathon like nothing. Then they went out and did 100 Mile Marathon three weeks later, you. Know.
Speaker
Oh my God.
Jim McConville
The level of fitness. Do you remember the obstacle course? I went down for a visit and they had. And they go. Hey, by the way, Gen, we have your scores, too. Just, you know, we and they brought them out from 40-some-odd years ago, and I had gotten an A. But they had. A young man, young woman, go through it in front of me and they were, you know, of course, they were the best in the core, but they it was just amazing to watch what they do. And we're very blessed to have them. You know and and and what I see is the importance of knowing that we're going to produce, you know, about 1000 officers for, for our army every year. And as Chief of Staff of the Army, you just you just know how important that is. There's a lot of other great schools out there. And my, my kids went to ROTC at Boston College, Boston University, and Clemson direct commissions, so. You. Know those? All those programs are really important, but but at the end of the day, West Point is where you're going to get your, you know, a a good sliver of your Officers and that's really important.
Bruce Huberman
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Bruce Huberman
So during your time at West Point, you mentioned that you, you've ended up focusing on aviation. So what was the intrigue and I mean? Being a helicopter pilot, I mean, those machines are just beyond. And so how did you start dabbling in that and knowing that you like that?
Jim McConville
That you know this. There's a thing that people talk about, how you, you know, if you ever gonna inspire your kids, do a thing called primal cues. OK, so they called, you expose them to certain things. And. And my dad actually took me up to West Point at 10 years old, and I just backed my mind. It was a primal cue, you know, so you never know if you're taking your kids through life what to expose them. But what happened to me was. You know, interesting enough, I'd never been on in an airplane until I went to West Point. So there's some what's really amazing when I see my kids and my grandkids. Who are you? Know like up in more planes, but at the time you know where I came from. You know Quincy, MA, we just didn't go anywhere, you know, and didn't and didn't think we needed to either but. They, you know, we we got a chance to go to Fort Knox. They flew us out there in a C130, which is a cargo plane. And then they exposed us to the various branches of around, you know, you know, armor and tanks and infantry. And. And I came up with the idea that, you know, at the time I was gonna be an infantry officer that flew helicopters. And the reason was. They had this Calvary unit Air Calvary unit that flew these little helicopters, and there was a Vietnam pilot that took me out in the helicopter and showed me what they could do and I go, “you get paid to do this” and he goes, “no we get paid more to do this” and I go. I was sold on that, you know. So I became an infantry aviator and then eventually aviation became a branch. But I went to the air Cavalry. And, you know, there was a lot of free. And it's, you know. I I you know, I don't know how to explain it, but flying, you know helicopters, you know, shooting helicopters and, you know, and and doing all those type thing I. Don't think there's? Anything cooler in the world that you can do, you know, in in the military, I I've flown F15 in Afghanistan, but it's not the same. As you know. Feeling that you know the the wind rushing through the doors and the Rockets flying by you and all the good things that go on. So for me that was what excited me and I was passionate about it and I liked it.
Paul Assaiante
Was that was were you flying Apaches?
Jim McConville
I I flew. I flew Apaches. I flew Kiowa Warriors, I flew cobras. I flew the H6 - the little gun ship. So I've I've. Pretty much thrown them all so.
Paul Assaiante
Well, we were. We were having tennis practice on the plane one day and they were doing Apache demonstrations. And I'll never forget, they had a an Apache above the tennis courts and it was moving up and down like a yo-yo. And then it did a 360 and then it was gone and the and the batte of the eye, it's also cool that the academies, while they compete against each other. There's so much love. I mean, there is no more love between the institutions than you have there. Except one day a year when we're playing football against them. And I remember one year you were on the apron waiting to go into the mess and it was Army Air Force Week. And they had some.
Jim McConville
That's right.
Paul Assaiante
Jets. From Air Force fly along the Hudson below the top of the plane and come up and Sonic Boom the core waiting to go in for a mess. And that's when I day I realized that you know what those suckers are really powerful.
Jim McConville
No, they are. And yeah, I I actually agree with you and that one coach is, you know my my relationship with the you know, the fellow Chiefs of the services, you know, like it's one day, but even then even you know how we talk about it, you know it it's. Yeah, we we want both sides to, you know, they're going to come out of this thing. And how you handle it is really important. I mean, it's the games important. You certainly want to instill in the cadets the importance of winning. That's that's kind of my, you know, in fact we, you know, I think my little kind of quip if you will was you know we send the army somewhere. We don't send you to participate. Don't send. You try hard. We send you the win because there is no second place or honorable will mention in combat, and that's the mindset that we want to have. But you have to define winning for people you know, I mean, you know it it it, it has to be achievable. You know, even as you're you're kind of bringing your kids up, but bringing people up. I mean, most are not going to be professional athletes, but they could be good athletes. They could be good, you know, at whatever level they're at and give them something that’s attainable and and and and get them to try to win. And at the same time, I'm a firm believer. I I think today we almost need to train people how to fail. We fail all the time and it wasn't a big deal. But you know, in some ways they've put so much pressure on young men and women that, you know, they're not allowed to feel. I mean, most successful people, I would argue, and I'm certainly one of those, have failed along the way,
but we're able to pick ourselves up. Dust ourselves off, and get on and and and and and you know get to next punch you know. Then you look at failure as an opportunity to do something maybe different so.
Bruce Huberman
Yeah. And I think I think you're actually right. And we've spoken, you know about this before on the podcast and I know, Paul. Is just just be follow sometimes that you know this current you know situation where these young athletes and stuff and the parents involved and it's and the coaching and there's just no you know failure is not always seen. And because everyone gets, you know, the the, the whole participation trophies and things like that. So kids don't really grasp that. So I think something needs to be done to sort of just change the way that's viewed, because right now you're right. A A different generation is is coming to the forefront with, you know, not being able to handle adversity and and and by failing. And by failing, I think you learn how to handle adversity and at least the very successful people have have done that. Something else that I was just curious about turned a chain of command in the army. You know, I think more in the private sector, you know, you know, executives have to try to micromanage, you know, everyone below them. And I think you have to learn how to. I think for successful leaders you have to look sort of learn the chain of command and and allow you know your the under link or the your, your person who's right below you in command to be able to do what they need to do, and you can't sit there because you have other things to, you know, look at in the big picture. So how does that work? And like, how do you learn how to give up some of the control and realize that, you know, you'll be more successful if you let the people underneath you, you know, do what they need to do and and and do it correctly.
Jim McConville
We we have a, you know, kind of a a term we call mission command, which is the way. You give guidance and intent, you know you, you, you, you basically tell your subordinates. “Hey, here's, you know, kind of, you know your your task and purpose that we want to accomplish.” We don't necessarily tell you how to accomplish it. You know and you know as I've learned over the years that you know, first of all, most leaders, that's what they want. They don't want you to micromanage them. And and quite frankly, when you're in combat and you know, the bullets start flying and everything's happening. If you think you're going to be able to do that, you haven't led in combat, you know, so you might as well start teaching people how to do it before they get in a situation where everything falls apart. And I I think that's incredibly important. The other thing I would suggest though, you know, I when I talked about organizations. And it's it's same thing with, you know, with teams is that I, I I tell commanders, you know make sure that your organization is highly
trained, which means they're competent at their job. You know, you know, Belichick, you talk about, you know, do your job well, you can't do your job if you don't know your job. You know, so you have to become a master of your craft, you have to be highly trained. You have to do that deliberate practice to make sure that you're you're good. The the second thing is you have to be disciplined. You've got to be of the trust people. You know as Coach is talking about, you know you have to trust people, they're going to do the right thing, the right way, and it takes both and. And you have to show them. What that looks like, you know, if you can't trust them, you can't do you can't keep, you know, do mission command the third say they have to physically sit. You know, if you tell them, hey, you go up that hill and they're not fit enough to go up that hill then you can't do it. So you need those three things, you know, highly trained, discipline, and fit if you want to be successful. And whatever you're going to do. And the other thing I would suggest is that I've learned over leadership. Some people you need to give a lot more guidance than other people you know, they're really good. But different leaders, you know, need, you know some. Some. It's like, “hey, go make me proud.” That's all you need to tell them and they get it and they're out there, you know, their Generals that can do that others. And I need you to do go left, right, left, right left. Here, and I'll still do it, but they just need a little more help to get where they are and understanding the people that you work for, understanding their talents and. What do you have to give them to be able to do their job is is a is a skill set that senior leaders should develop.
Paul Assaiante
You know, it's interesting and you and you used and you mentioned Belichick, who I've gotten to know well and he has, he says, “do your job.” But the other thing he says is “stay in your lane” and and that's where you as a leader excel because you put people in places where all they needed to do was what they were best at. Because you don't win. Covering weaknesses you win playing to your strengths and so that must have been something that you honed along the way being able recognize the true strengths, the secret sauce of people and putting them in places where that's all they had to do.
Jim McConville
Yeah, I think that's so important and I think Belichick does that really well. When you think about, you know, and you orchestrate the team, you know, if you have a really good quarterback that can throw well, you better have good receivers. Well, if you don't have good receivers, well, you can't go down that right, that's not the right play. And we see the same thing, you know, in the military. We know we have some. He just said, you know. Very innovative and you give them the innovative things to do, others or you'll make sure the trains run on time and they keep them on track and do a very good job of that. But if you tell
them how much would be track and they're like, hey, wait a minute. I'm. I'm that's not what I do. I'm, you know, you know, a long snapper. I'm going. To that's what I do. I don't. Do you know? This type of thing, and I think understanding you know if you don't understand your strengths. As a coach, how do you play to?
Paul Assaiante
Yeah, they can't. You know, I'd like to go back to a tough topic because we touched on it a little bit, but we didn't. We didn't relate it to to, to the military. There's no question you don't learn virtually anything winning. Jobs done on to the next one. Well done. But you do learn everything in losing. But in your world, losing doesn't look very pretty. How have you managed? The I mean, you're you're a man. You have feelings, but you're dealing with stuff that you have to detach from. I would suspect. How have you dealt with that in your career?
Jim McConville
Yeah, it it's it's really hard, you know, because when you make decisions, you know people are gonna get hurt and people are going to die. And you know what you try to do is you try to prevent that as much as possible, and even more so is, you know, one of the challenges in aviation. Is, you know, I've been to, you know, a fairly good amount of combat, but when you're in aviation, you're in combat all the time. You fight this thing called gravity and you know, and so every time someone goes up, their kids go up or I go up, you know, you're, you know, you're in the situation. That can be very challenging. So, you know, first of all, you know, you you can't. Ever. Take yourself out that you don't care. You know the the the most important thing you can do is care. And you know when when something happens, you know the number one thing you want to do is is, is take care of the family and you know, I mean for the family that is. I mean it's it's just they just lost their world, you know. And so you know how we do that in the military is is is really important. You got to make sure you take care of their family. Doing everything you can. Because they just lost the most important person in their life. And the second thing is for the unit, you gotta take your the unit cause the. Unit just lost a brother or sister. And you know, we do memorial service, but you get a properly remember the fallen. And that's all caring. But then what you have to do is you have to get the. Lessons learned from what happened.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jim McConville
And then you got to apply the lesson. Learn. And then you had to get on with the mission. And you know what I would do with young younger leaders is I would write that down for them because when you lose a brother or sister and it's just, you know, I mean the pain. But but you have to and it's like OK, you need to go, you know, go in a room. Do something. Cry. Get. Get that. Grieve. That's OK. But make sure you take care of the family. Make sure you properly remember the fallen, and that's part of the memorial service. And you think you're all those type things. But you got to get the lessons learned and then you got to get back on the mission because that's what happens. And you got to do that in a caring way. And that's hard to do and it's it's really hard to do.
Paul Assaiante
That's an amazing summation. I've always wondered about that, you know. Because on the friendly fields of strife, but you're on fields that are not friendly and and you know how. How do you prepare for that? And and I also would think, Jim, that there's also. A little bit of paying that person's existence forward, carrying with them the spirit of that person to get on with the mission and not forget.
Jim McConville
That's right. But I mean, that's so important how you do that, do you, you know, name the tank or the the base. So you know, I mean you you. Just want to make sure. That ever knows that person was not lost, lost in vain, you know, and you know. You, you, you, you, you. Remember them the best way you can. You want to make sure you know the organization understands that they were valued, like everyone's a valued member. But you know, let's not forget, you know what happened here.
Paul Assaiante
Yeah. Wow. That's tough.
Bruce Huberman
Just to get get to the opposite of that, I think it's. The word punishment and UM, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean in the military, but what do you think is really like, you know, if someone in the sporting world shows up to practice an hour later? What is your thought on punishment and like, what do you think is the most effective way? To try to not duplicate that for that person in the future. So I think that's really important because I think it's a very fine line today. You have to be very careful how you, you know, you manage someone who doesn't, you know, perform or does something that's really egregious. How do you, how do you handle that? And what do you think of them about that?
Jim McConville
Yeah, I mean, you know it's it's interesting because I'm, you know, again from a leadership standpoint what I'm always trying to do is build a cohesive team and what do I mean by that? You know, a cohesive team where everyone feels that they're a valued member, you know? So almost to the point where and I've had people tell me. “Geez, Sir, I wish you would just yell at me.” But the fact that I let the fact that I should have practice, I let down the team you. That's what you want. You you wanna. It's all about the team you know and some some people will tell you there's no I in team. There isn't me. You gotta look for it. But you know, I mean, you know, you get it. But. But. But the idea is you want everyone to be committed to the team. And it's it's interesting. It's a book called The Tribe. And you know Sebastian Young wrote a book called The Tribe. But I asked him to come and speak, you know, cuz I'm always trying to get an edge of you know the importance my, my little kind of, you know, kind of words I use to describe what I was trying to do with the army. I go what I would tell leaders, you know, this is my intent. I want you to build cohesive teams that are highly trained, disciplined, and fit that can fight and win on any battlefield. That's that's your. That's your job. You go do it. I'm not gonna tell you to do it, and I'll help you, but that's what I want you to do. So that cohesion is the secret sauce. When you've been in combat, you'll see that keep people together. In the toughest situations, I mean so. Sebastian Younger did the movie, Restrepo and. It's about this. That I happen to be there when he did it, but there were 30 kids young soldiers up on a hilltop in the middle of Afghanistan, getting shot at every day and doing all these incredible things. Wonderful, you know, but the cohesion of that team was so tight that they're probably happier than they ever were. The worst conditions you know, you know, talked about it for years. So I asked him to come and he wrote a book and he talked about tribes and how people come together. And so he came to talk. He goes well, he goes the best way you can build cohesive teams. He goes, “first of all, general, I don't know why you're asking me. You guys do it better than anybody else, but. Here's what you do. You bring a small group. You take your team, whatever. Team it is. OK, you put packs in their back, you know, and you take them on a long hike for a whole day, you know, make them, you know, climb over rocks and coach to us, you know, climb a ski slope or something like that, you know? And then have them sleep outside.” Because we've done studies. There's something about if you sleep outside by yourself, it's a really scary experience. But be with a whole bunch of other people together. Look into stars that brings people together. So take a team you know, put packs on them. Hide face some adversity. Put them outside. They come together tight. That's how you build cohesion. So I would say on punishment, you know, you have to take a look at what? What was the person you know first why were they late, you know? I mean they they just don't care enough about the team to be on the team then that's the problem. Or they just
have time management problems but get after trying to solve the problem, don't go, you know, fine kick them off. I mean, I'm more into investing in people for the long term, you know, giving breaks and then setting standards and discipline and they don't want to let people down. You know, you don't want to be the one that's 30 minutes late. You don't want to be the one that didn't practice. You don't want to be the one that was out the night before the big game because you don't want to let down your brothers and. Sisters who are counting on you.
Paul Assaiante
Ohh, goosebumps. I’m getting goosebumps from everything you're saying, General. That’s crazy. You know, it's funny, you never know. Sometimes as a leader, you do. You have to do something difficult. I remember we had a tennis player at West Point. He was a really great player and and it was early on in my time there and. He had trouble controlling his emotions, so after his pleb year I said, “listen, man, this this has to stop. We can't continue.” So he was a yearling second year at West Point, and he lunged for a wide ball net and the General’s wife happened to be watching the match, and he ripped off an F bomb. And I said, you know, I'm going to have to throw you off the team. And I saw him on the base every day for three years. We never said a word to each other. Ten years later, he sent me his first OER officer evaluation report, and it was perfect. And he said, coach, if you hadn't to throw me off the team, this never would have happened. But sometimes as a leader, you just have to go with your gut.
Jim McConville
That's right. Yeah. I I mean, you know, I'm not saying you know it's you kind of give people a chance to fail like you can't, you know, I mean like I tell fail we're not going to feel all the time. You know, failling is good to learn. But, you know, we're not about failing and, you know, all the time that's not. That's not how you win, you know. So and and you shouldn't be, you know, satisfied with, you know making mistake like you don't ever be, you know. And that's why I kind of got the the mantra of “winning matters” because you know, quite frankly, saw some people losing games or losing or not, you know, wait a minute, this is, you know, we we don't. We didn't come here to lose. We didn't come here to participate. We didn't come here to try hard.
Paul Assaiante
Right.
Jim McConville
We came here to win. Because “winning matters” and I think sometimes you got to instill that in people and it's interesting to do it as well. And you know, I got a chance to, you know, I brought it into the army, but I went and talked to the football team. The hockey team really took it on. You know and and you know, it's like, hey, you know, I kind of. You know, tailor to whatever team I was talking to. Hey, you know we're not sending the army hockey team to try out the army football team or whatever team it is, you know? And so young men and women wanna, you know, wanna they really wanna win. And you you have to define what it looks like to them, you know. And and and it it has to be achievable too. You know you're not going to solve world hunger, you know, I mean, you know, you'd like to try. You're not going to solve some problems but give them something that's meaningful. That's hard that they can solve. And that's what winning looks like for them.
Bruce Huberman
Just to change gears just a bit in terms of. Did you have a confirmation hearing as the Army chief of staff with Congress?
Jim McConville
I did, absolutely.
Bruce Huberman
So could you give us a little like the behind the scenes, how that works and I you know I know it's got to be difficult in terms of just trying to stay above the political fray because you know our country is like divided and I really we. On this podcast we avoid real politics and stuff, but how did that? How was that confirmation hearing? And did you have to prep for that or how? How did that work?
Jim McConville
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, we do confirmation hearings. We also do what we call posture hearings. So you know, we do at least four of those a year. And I think what you have to understand first of all, I I had, you know the privilege or or you know the benefit of being. And you know Chief of the Congressional Liaison, which is like, obviously, you know, working for two years with Congress and understanding how the system works and and. And it was interesting because at the time as the Chief of Staff of the Army, I was supposed to go take a division at that the division command, which is a, you know, really prestigious thing to do. And he said, “Jim, I want you to learn this. This will be very helpful for you. You know, in, in later years.” And he was so, you know, be honest it's it's you know, so important and let me commend 101st Airborne Division which was great anyways. But the idea of understanding you know Congress has a critical role in giving the military the
authorizations and the appropriations that they do and and so you know it, it's hard, but that's our system. You know, when you think about it. You can't hire a General and putting him in a position without Congress’s confirming them. And and and what happens is the confirmation hearing is actually like a job interview. So you go over there and he said he has a chance to ask the questions that they want to ask. And you know your job is to, you know, stay out of the political, the politics and and and. But you have to know what they are. And that's where some people make a mistake. I mean, you you sign you. You always have to be honest and you have to be, you know, forthright and those type things. But at the same time you you need to understand when you enter into you know left or right which side and and you really want to try to avoid that if you can.
Paul Assaiante
So my friend, you, you're about to enter into your new chapter in life. I recently heard a person she was announcing she was retiring. Or she announcing that she was leaving and the person said, how do you feel about retiring? And she bristled. And she said, “I'm not retiring. I'm just starting a new thing.”
Jim McConville
Yeah.
Paul Assaiante
And you've got so much left to give. You're so alive. So what's your next chapter going to look like?
Jim McConville
Well, I you know it it started. You know, it's interesting. I'm learning business which is is I actually work for. I'm an operating partner for private equity firm that does national security, aerospace, and industrials and and and and you know I sit on some boards and now I do some speaking. You know, I've been involved in some, you know, there's there's lots of, you know, like like you said, Coach, I still got, you know, I still got a lot left in me and. You know, at the same time, this this last probably 8 months since I retired, I've really spent some time, quality time with family, you know it it's nice to know. That OK, we're going to go on vacation and we're actually going to do it. You know, I'm not worried about you know, evacuating Afghanistan or Iran or Ukraine or COVID or all these type of things that go on when you’re the Chief of Staff of the Army and you're basically on call, you know, in in 10 minutes, 24/7 all the time so you know that's part of it. You know, one of the things that people ask is, “do you miss the army?” Like I miss the people. But at the same time. When you leave a command, you leave, you know, Chief of Staff of the Army. We we have a
great new Chief of Staff of the Army ready, George and I try to give him room. You know, like it's kind of like you want to fade away. You don't want to get, you know you want to let him be the Chief of Staff of the Army. And that's what I try to do. And and you. Know at the same time, there are certainly want to look for. You know, opportunities to contribute and you know, I still coach and I still mentor. And I still you know. I'm I'm I'm learning business which. I find exciting and. And so I'm. I'm I'm keeping pretty busy, but I'm not working 100 hours a week, like I used to.
Bruce Huberman
So I want to ask one last question and I'll let Paul Wrap it up. So where do you go for like professional or just advice? Is it your better half, Maria or is it just what's what, where do you go? Because I'm thinking you you're so high up and like and if you need advice. Like, who would you draw that from?
Jim McConville
Well, you know, I think you draw it from, you know, whoever the right person is to give it, you know, there was some very challenging times during my Chief of Staff. You know, I I just talked to my fellow neighbor person General Joe Dunford, who was retired former chairman, you know, I mean, sometimes you got to go where people understand the level that you're General Odierno, who was the Chief of Staff of the Army, you know, certainly talked to the general company. I mean, there's generals I talked to there's senators I've talked to. There's congressman. My wife, certainly you know the good thing about your wife, she'll always give you you know. You know, unfettered feedback but but a lot of times it's just who is the right person to give you advice, you know? And and and that's it. But it's just like knowing your strengths and weaknesses. You know who can actually give you good advice and you know not all the problems are, you know, at that level, you know, sometimes it's your lawyers, sometimes your doctors, sometimes it's people that you know, have you know that perspective or you know if if if you're dealing, you know with a problem. That affects, you know that gender or race or ethnicity or something that's going to have someone that actually you know, I'm a white male, you know, that's where, you know, perspectives come in where they call it diverse or whatever you want to call it. You can call it whatever you want, but you want people with different perspectives that can help you see what other people see because you lead a very diverse organization and what you want is people that understand the people that you're leading to help you see their perspective, so you can lead them better.
Paul Assaiante
So I'm going to wrap it up General James McConville, when we started the this concept of a podcast. What we wanted to do was to talk to people that were highly successful in all walks of life and we I believe that so many of you people out there have very similar qualities and. You know, the one thing that I wanted to share to the audience here is when you think of a General and you think of the military, it's a very foreign animal to most of us. And we think of people differently. And the thing that came through today and the hour. That we shared. Is your humanity. Your your for all that you've done and all that you've accomplished, you cared about people the whole way through, and you still do and. So if nobody out there enjoys this podcast, I don't really give a damn. This is one of the best hours of my life and I wanted to thank you for coming on.
Jim McConville
Well, thank you, coach. And again, you know you had a profound influence on people like me, like Rich Clark and move that you anger and many other folks, you know, we we all really appreciate what you gave to us and you know, and the thing that is, you know, just if I can provide one more thing, you know, people ask about what makes a good leader. A good leader. And you know, I I have 5 things, you know, first thing you gotta, you know, we talk about to be confident. You gotta you gotta make sure you know your job. You gotta be committed. That's that's to give you have to have character you know if you're going to lead, you have got to have you know integrity and character you've got to have courage both in combat; a lot of times it's physical, but you also have to have moral courage, you know, to tell people that you're not going to do something that's not right. And you know, that's one thing we expect out of leaders, but most important, last thing. You got to care. You know, you gotta care about your people, and if you take care of them, they'll take care of you. So like you took care of us. Thank you.
Bruce Huberman
Beautiful.
Paul Assaiante
Thank you so very very much.
Bruce Huberman
And I just want to say thank you. This is the first time meeting you, you know, through the airwaves and that this has been incredible and enlightening and just, you know, we were so excited all week, you know, for this. And thank you for for coming on. We know you're very busy, but I think this is going to be huge for our audience. And I know they're really, really going to like this.
Speaker
Well.
Bruce Huberman
Thank you. Again, enjoy your summer and best of luck.
Paul Assaiante
Happy 4th, happy 4th. Go America. Yeah. Thank you, man. Thank.
Jim McConville
Yeah, thank you. Alright.
Bruce Huberman
Thank you.
Paul Assaiante
Thank you.